Here are the climate-related sections of speeches by MPs during the Commons debate Great British Energy Bill (Second sitting).
14:04 Andrew Bowie (Conservative)
Tristan Zipfel: You can probably tell from my accent that I come from a country where state-owned investment in energy assets is commonplace, so that is something that we at EDF are very comfortable with and see very positively. In fact, I would say that any initiative that leads to directing more investment, capital and effort into decarbonisation is a very good thing. As Alistair said, it will be important that GB Energy is set up in a way that triggers and supports investment in the sector and does not disrupt the competitive playing field that we currently have in it.
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14:06 Andrew Bowie (Conservative)
Alistair McGirr: On the way that we think about the particular benefits from GB Energy, first, we look at it as a potential partner for some of our investments. We work with a number of commercial entities, some of which are state owned—for example, Equinor, which we work with on the Dogger Bank offshore wind farm and on our carbon capture and storage projects. We work with these parties on a commercial basis and we would be open to working with GB Energy on projects that would help to accelerate the transition. So co-investment is one area. We would be keen to see that targeted at areas where there may be a bit of policy risk. With things like hydrogen storage, hydro-pump storage or CCS, there may be an opportunity for GB Energy to take some of the policy risks that private companies perhaps cannot.
Alistair talked about emerging technologies and how some of them present certain risk profiles, where having an investor like GB Energy could help kick-start the development of this segment of the market. He mentioned CCS; I think we could talk about hydrogen as another example.
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14:12 Uma Kumaran (Labour)
Tristan Zipfel: If you take the example of France, EDF is indeed state owned, but it is a competitive market. Nowadays, EDF is one actor among others. If you take, for instance, offshore wind in France, EDF competes—sometimes it wins, and sometimes it does not. The benefit for the general public is a sense that that body can execute the strategic vision of the French Government in delivering net zero or a decarbonised future. EDF is very much the arm that executes that vision—independently, at arm’s length, but it does it. I also think there is a creation of long-term value by the ownership of assets. EDF provides dividends to the French state, which I think are valuable.
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Catherine Fookes (Labour)
Alistair McGirr: I am very supportive of those projects coming to Wales. Obviously the Celtic sea auctions are another example of the upcoming opportunities in Wales. The reality is that GB Energy is not going to be the vehicle that drives that—that will be the wider policy framework in terms of what happens here in Westminster, and also in the regulatory frameworks that are in place and what happens in the devolved Administrations. My reference to Scotland is not to say that other parts of the country could not have the opportunities for investment. It is just that the sheer scale of the opportunities in Scotland for wind, hydro, some of the grid projects, CCS and hydrogen mean there is a significant opportunity in Scotland. That is one of the reasons why GB Energy has been located up in that area.
Tristan Zipfel: I can only concur. Wales is very important for us. We have onshore wind projects that we are actively promoting in Wales. I think GB Energy could play a role there. I want to emphasise, however, that I do not think GB Energy on its own will be the solution to unlocking the opportunities you describe. I think it is really important in Wales in particular that there is an effort on the policy side to provide more certainty and more visibility of the projects, as well as the question of the grid, which is a problem. But I concur that Wales is very important strategically from our standpoint as a renewable energy developer.
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14:24 Stephen Flynn (Aberdeen South) (SNP)
“the production, distribution, storage and supply of clean energy…the reduction of greenhouse gas emissions…improvements in energy efficiency, and…measures for ensuring the security of the supply of energy.”
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Andrew Bowie (Conservative)
The Crown Estate has been operating in the offshore renewable energy space for a long time—roughly 25 years—and, working with Government, the private sector and the third sector, we have created what is the second largest offshore wind capability in the world. That is something that we as a country should be very proud of, but obviously what got us here will not get us where we need to be.
When you look at the Climate Change Committee’s report on what is required from offshore wind and other renewable and zero-carbon technologies into the future, you see that we need to accelerate our deployment in a way that is balanced with other marine uses, including the environment, and ensure that we are deploying at a rate that meets the targets that were set for good reason. We have been organising the Crown Estate for the last five to 10 years in order to do that, accelerating leasing and starting the de-risking process for developers.
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14:35 Perran Moon (Labour)
To your question, it is fundamental. It will be a real failure if we end up deploying renewable energy on the seabed in the way we need to in the next 20 years and are not able to capture a fair proportion of that industrial complex for ourselves as a country. It would be a real pity if we did not build new jobs and new futures for young people across the country and if we did not support the distribution of that benefit across the country, including to coastal communities.
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14:42 Pippa Heylings (Liberal Democrat)
Within the scope of the Bill, under clause 3, we also heard in evidence this morning the request that we seek a duty towards nature and nature recovery and the achievement of the Environment Act 2021. Would that provide the reassurance that while we are dealing with the climate emergency, we are not disregarding the nature emergency and the environmental value of the seabed and the sea?
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14:43 Harriet Cross (Conservative)
Q The aim of GB Energy, among other things, is to decarbonise the grid. The 2030 date has been thrown around. Practically, in terms of timescales, no matter what happens with GB Energy, the Crown Estate and land leases, it would not impact the Crown Estate’s ability to bring more wind farms online by 2030. What is in the Bill at the moment that can bring on the transition and help to decarbonise?
To put it another way, we have delivered 12 GW of generating capacity in 25 years and if, as informed by the Climate Change Committee, we are to move up to 125 GW of generating capacity by 2050, that means we need a five to tenfold increase in the next 25 years. What we do in the next few years is incredibly important to ensure that we are laying the foundations for that to be a successful deployment.
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14:45 Torcuil Crichton (Labour)
We have learned a number of things. Obviously, focusing on the supply chain is fundamentally important. That has been a learning over the past 10 years. The other thing that has been a learning is that we need to work to de-risk the sector for the private sector as much as possible, because in a world that has a growing offshore wind pipeline, even the companies that you are listening to today all work internationally, and we need to retain the UK as a competitive place for them to want to deploy renewable energy. The way that to do that is to build the pathway to the future, so that they can see the pipeline using the marine delivery route map. We must de-risk such projects up front so that they still put their capital in and earn the requisite return on it for the risk that they take, but we are not asking them to take a disproportionate risk on projects that are being stalled. Those are all learnings over the past 25 years.
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14:49 Andrew Bowie (Conservative)
Q Thank you very much for joining us, Mr Buckland. Obviously you come from the perspective of a company that is investing—alongside others that are investing—in the future technologies that will guide us towards net zero and a clean future. One of the objects of Great British Energy, as clause 3 states, is that it should be involved in
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Andrew Bowie (Conservative)
to include technology that might be involved in carbon capture and storage. It is not set out clearly within the Bill that that is the case. Ms Dawes, as somebody who works with the companies involved in the extraction and production of fossil fuels in Aberdeen and the drive to transition to net zero, do you share the concern with the narrow prescription of what GB Energy will be allowed to invest in and be involved in?
Myrtle Dawes: I understand their concern. From my perspective, I understood that that would be covered under clause 1(2)(b), which concerns the reduction of greenhouse gases. Fundamentally, the storage or utilisation of carbon dioxide comes with the reduction of greenhouse gases. [ Interruption. ] As Olivia is here, she could probably respond.
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Andrew Bowie (Conservative)
such as CCUS, wave, tidal and hydrogen.
We believe, however, that the narrow definition of clean energy in the current draft of the Bill could be prohibitive to low-carbon technologies and inadvertently limit the scope of GB Energy’s investments, thereby reducing the potential for public projects and hindering the UK’s ability to meet its net zero targets.
The definition of clean energy should be clarified to ensure that it encompasses energy sourced from fossil fuels when combined with carbon capture and storage—that is, when abated. We, alongside Hydrogen UK, have proposed some alternative wording that would enable abated fossil fuels to be included, and ensure the reduction of greenhouse gas emissions from energy produced from fossil fuels. We must future-proof this definition to make sure that GB Energy is able to invest safely in projects such as low-carbon energy with CCS and is not at risk of being challenged.
Jack Norquoy: I understand the concerns that have been raised. Some of our members will also be members of the Carbon Capture and Storage Association. I understand those concerns and am happy with the suggestions. Our recommendation for the Bill, and moving forward, is that it maintains alignment with what the Climate Change Committee has within its scope as part of our transition to net zero.
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Andrew Bowie (Conservative)
Q Ms Powis, do you suggest that if we do not make those changes to the Bill, it might be prohibitive to further investment in CCUS, or do you think that the words from the Secretary of State on announcing the Bill were enough to calm any jitters in your industry?
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15:20 Andrew Bowie (Conservative)
Q This is a question to Ms Dawes and then to Mr Norquoy. You obviously represent two different types of energy companies. The Net Zero Technology Centre represents companies that are still very much involved in the North sea, although investing heavily in the next generation of technology that will get us to a cleaner future. How do you see this Bill, and the creation of GB Energy as a company, as helping to facilitate your work at the Net Zero Technology Centre? To Mr Norquoy, I ask the same question: how do you see it as assisting the members of your organisation, Scottish Renewables?
Myrtle Dawes: I am really excited about this. For reference, the Net Zero Technology Centre received £180 million of Government funding. We have managed to raise and match that with industry and go on to have more than 100 start-ups. We have more than 69 commercialised technologies. We have done more than 300 projects and gone on to give value back to GB of an order of one to nine in cost-benefit terms. When I see something like this, on a much bigger scale—our work is really a microcosm of this—it is really exciting. It is a catalyst sitting at the heart of Government, which will make sure that there is support for innovation during the period when it needs acceleration, when we need this technology to make things more efficient and drive down costs, and when we need to get good technology into the next set of infrastructure projects. For us, it is really exciting. Given what we have seen at the NZTC, it could go on to deliver quite a lot of value.
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15:22 Andrew Bowie (Conservative)
Jack Norquoy: The Bill includes a reference to working with Scottish Ministers, which is welcome, as part of improved relations at the moment, which are welcome too. On governance and devolved competency, as we heard in earlier evidence from the Crown Estate, the partnership with GB Energy is welcome. There will have to be development across the UK to support our net zero targets, but we want to ensure that there is parity with Crown Estate Scotland too. At the start, I highlighted the pipeline that we have sitting in Scotland. On the point about the competency of the Scottish Government, we would like to see some more detail—again, probably outwith the Bill—on how we can ensure parity between extra powers to the Crown Estate and to Crown Estate Scotland.
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15:24 Stephen Flynn
Q We have heard a great deal today, and rightly so, about the potential investment that GB Energy could make, whether that is in production, storage or generation and so on and so forth. I am particularly interested in the innovation space and in your experience with the Net Zero Technology Centre. Do you think that GB Energy’s focus should be on that, given the relatively small quantum that is available, or do you think that it should be broader and more focused on the de-risking of projects that might already be in the pipeline but might require assistance in relation to consent, planning or further capital investment?
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15:28 Olivia Blake (Labour)
Q I have two questions for Ms Powis. The first goes back to the definition. Before you arrived, Ms Dawes mentioned that she felt that it was covered in clause 3(2)(b). May I ask why you do not think that that sentence is sufficient to cover CCUS?
Olivia Powis: We have proposed instead that the statement must provide that Great British Energy’s objects are restricted to facilitating and encouraging investment in, and participating in, one or more of the production, distribution, storage and supply of clean energy, and the reduction, directly or indirectly, of greenhouse gas emissions from energy derived from fossil fuels, where that clean energy definition means energy and molecules produced from sources other than unabated fossil fuels. It is just about being clear about that clean energy definition. We have been told that, as drafted, it would exclude those with fossil fuels.
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15:30 Olivia Blake (Labour)
Q On CCUS, we want Great British Energy to have a broader portfolio once it is established—lots of witnesses today have said that. Where would you place CCUS, from a risky to a non-risky investment, for the £1.6 billion?
Olivia Powis: CCUS, as an industry, very much welcomes the announcements from Government last week and the further detail provided yesterday. There is lots of private sector investment helping to drive forward these projects. The funding commitment from Government is for projects once they are operational. Obviously there are still first-of-a-kind projects here, so I would not classify it as a very high risk. This is not a new technology; it is an industry that has been deployed elsewhere, and there is an understanding of how it will work.
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15:37 Andrew Bowie (Conservative)
Q Thank you for joining us this afternoon, Mr Whitehouse. I think it is fair to say that OEUK has been somewhat sceptical, although it obviously wanted to work with the Government, about the overarching policies towards the energy sector, and specifically the sector you represent. Speaking specifically to this Bill and the establishment of Great British Energy, how do you see that company interacting with members of OEUK to deliver what we all want to achieve, which is greater energy security and a drive towards a cleaner net zero future?
David Whitehouse: Looking at the 400 members that we represent—people investing in our oil and gas, wind developers, people investing in carbon storage, but also a huge supply chain—I do not think we are sceptical. As an organisation, looking at our 400 members and at the 200,000 people who work in the sector, we see that journey to net zero as a real opportunity for the UK and for Scotland if we build on our industrial strengths. We are so lucky in this country that we have brilliant people and a world-class supply chain; we are also lucky that the wind blows and that we have the North sea and other assets. We must make best use of them.
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15:42 Andrew Bowie (Conservative)
“Great British Energy’s objects are restricted to facilitating…the production, distribution, storage and supply of clean energy…the reduction of greenhouse gas emissions…improvements in energy efficiency, and…measures for ensuring the security of the supply of energy.”
David Whitehouse: We will look to bring clarity in that area. The interpretation we have taken and the conversations we have had indicate that this would not preclude companies from investing in that manner, and that the Bill is broadly defined to allow all companies to invest. That is something we very much welcome. We see the journey to net zero as being one of inclusivity, not exclusivity. As I have said, we represent companies that produce oil and gas, which have a critical role in our energy mix, but in terms of bringing forward technology, as it stands, no, we do not think that. There is an opportunity, though, as the Secretary of State brings forward the priorities, to provide clarity that those things would not be excluded.
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15:43 Andrew Bowie (Conservative)
David Whitehouse: The position we have always taken is that you have energy communities up and down the UK. We have a very proud energy sector, and in principle I think you could have put GB Energy in many places, but we welcome it in Aberdeen. The reason we welcome it in Aberdeen is because that is where you see a real density of high-quality operators, high-quality developers and high-quality supply chain. That is the right place to put it. We take confidence that this journey to net zero must be about inclusivity, and about breaking down barriers and building bridges. Having GB Energy centred in Aberdeen is a good statement of intent that this Government—it was also supported by the Scottish Government—recognise that as well. We need to make the most of our industrial strength. Placing this in Aberdeen is a good statement of intent, so we welcome that.
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15:45 Torcuil Crichton (Labour)
David Whitehouse: Okay. So I need to do a better job, because I do not see a threat whatsoever. In the UK at the moment, we are on a journey. The Climate Change Committee says that we must hit our net zero targets by 2050, and on that journey 50% of our energy under the balanced pathway will come from oil and gas. Today we produce only about half of what we need, so it is right that, in my opinion, if the industry is held to account, we should prioritise domestic oil and gas.
Our members see no threat from accelerating the path to renewable energy. It will take time, but it is absolutely the right thing to do. The only concern or consideration from our perspective is, “Yes, of course, accelerate.” Our members are actually investing in that, and our supply chain members are using their revenues from oil and gas to invest in that transition. It is an opportunity, not a threat.
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Stephen Flynn
Q In terms of the opportunities that exist in the Bill and GB Energy, would the appetite of your members for projects related to production or the generation of net zero energy be increased by the quantum that is available as part of GB Energy, which is relatively small in real terms—£1.3 billion per year, less the money that is already likely to be allocated to local plans and community projects—or by the ability to de-risk? If it is the latter, could you expand on your earlier answer?
David Whitehouse: I think we all recognise that on the journey to net zero a huge amount of investment is required to get us there—the Climate Change Committee says that £1.4 trillion is required. The lion’s share will come from the private sector, so GB Energy will help, but actually we need to create the conditions more broadly where we have investment in the energy sector that turns into enduring value. That is what we need to deliver, and we can talk about that.
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15:51 Perran Moon (Labour)
We also touched on the infrastructure that is required in the UK, much of which is now being dealt with through the National Energy System Operator, and people will have spoken at length about the issues around the grid. There is so much more that we need to deliver a net zero future for the UK and for Europe. Again, a state investor with a long-term investment horizon can now be in the position where we start talking about what networks we need across the North sea to be successful. Having an entity like GB Energy crowding in private sector money is a great opportunity to unlock some of that.
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15:53 Perran Moon (Labour)
Q On clause 3, you mentioned the supply chain. I totally agree with you about the value of the UK supply chain. You referred to the North sea a lot in relation to that, which I completely understand given your membership, but what about the other areas of the UK? I am particularly thinking of Wales and Cornwall where there is a huge renewable energy opportunity but where, perhaps, the supply chains have not yet been as well established as they are in the North sea. Could you comment on how we can fix that problem through GB Energy?
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15:57 Catherine Fookes (Labour)
There are seven pillars on the path to getting there. How do we do that? You need commitment from leaders in the sector; I think we can give you that. You need some targets; I think we can give you them. We also need a plan of action that holds us to account. I come back to the path to net zero: we will not do this if we are not inclusive and not attracting across the entire spectrum, the entire country.
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Andrew Bowie (Conservative)
Andy Prendergast: I am not necessarily saying that it needs to be in the Bill, but it needs to happen quite quickly. The Bill refers to the fact that it needs to be bottomed out, and every route we look at to net zero requires a huge increase in the amount of nuclear power. We need that decision on Sizewell quite quickly. I do not look at that as key to GB Energy, but it needs to be resolved.
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Josh MacAlister (Labour)
There is an estimated lack of 40,000 welders in this country. In the near future we will need more pylons, a huge amount of work on the water mains, SMRs, CCS and hydrogen. I sat on a load of Government bodies with the last Government, and all I kept hearing was, “We need more welders.” You had to take a view that, sadly, repeating “We need more welders” does not magically lead to a lot of welders showing up. We need the investment in the skills and in the supply chain to ensure that we get the right people in the right place.
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16:35 Olivia Blake (Labour)
Andy Prendergast: Both in terms of shoring up the jobs we currently have and potentially creating the jobs we so desperately need, one of our real concerns about net zero is the fact that, in a lot of countries, there is a perception that net zero is something being done to people, not with them. Look at the response in America, which is very much typified by “Drill, baby, drill”; look at Germany, where, bizarrely, Alternative für Deutschland is organising around heat pumps. We already have Reform UK talking about fighting the next election on the basis of net zero.
What we have recognised is that we have to make net zero work for people, and we think the best way of making that happen is to ensure that net zero comes with jobs and opportunities. The simple reality is that, if we get it right, those jobs and opportunities are going to be in the post-industrial areas. We have seen the maps put forward by people in the hydrogen lobby and from carbon capture and storage. These are jobs in places that desperately need them. If we are going to be serious about levelling up and making sure that prosperity is spread in Britain, we need to rebuild those industrial heartlands with proper, decent technologies that we can start exporting.
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16:41 Uma Kumaran (Labour)
Q I declare an interest as a proud member of the GMB. Thanks, Andy. The transition is one that we all care about, and it needs to be a just transition that takes local communities with us. In your opinion, what more can the Government do to ensure that workers and jobs are kept at the heart of the GB Energy Bill?
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16:43 Torcuil Crichton (Labour)
Q Thank you, Andy, for your impressive evidence. I also declare an interest as a member of the GMB. You welcome the Bill, possibly the prescription part for renewables, but what would you write in that prescription part to ensure that the workforce is involved and that we retain that workforce as we move to green energy away from oil and gas?
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16:49 Andrew Bowie (Conservative)
Q In the context of the Bill—the objects, the financial assistance and the strategic priorities and plans—it is quite clear that you are seeking to develop a company in the mould of an Ørsted or an EDF. I just quoted you on the target of 2030 for the decarbonisation of the grid. Some of the other witnesses have said that it will take 10 to 15 years and many billions of pounds more than has already been allocated to GB Energy even to begin to compete with an EDF or an Ørsted. How on earth will this company assist on that journey to 2030 decarbonisation if it will take as long as some of the other witnesses have said to begin to compete?
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17:00 Olivia Blake (Labour)
Michael Shanks: That is really important. Last week, I visited Ratcliffe-on-Soar power station, the last coal-powered station in the UK, and it was a good example of the just transition in practice. It was the right thing that we phased out coal; the TUC itself confirmed that that was exactly how to deal with workers in such a difficult situation where you are moving people from one industry and transitioning them into something else. It was a properly planned process, which is what we want to see in industry.
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17:08 Uma Kumaran (Labour)
That is an important question. Security of supply is one of the critical questions that we have to answer. We have this challenge at the moment of how we bring down bills; how we move towards our climate targets for clean power, which is essential; and how we ensure security of supply. The only way—the only long-term solution—is for us to move to cheaper renewable energy at pace. Every single year that we are dependent on volatile fossil fuel markets, we open ourselves to the kind of exposure that people have still been paying the price for in the past few years. That cannot continue.
We will not be able to flick a switch overnight. We have come in after 14 years of chaos, frankly, in so much of government, and we are doing as much as we can to move at pace, but this is the journey that we need to be on. As I have said, 2030 is ambitious, but it is absolutely achievable. I was heartened when every single one of our witnesses today confirmed that although this is an ambitious programme, they see GB Energy as a critical part—not a silver bullet; of course it is not, and we never said that it is—in moving us toward energy security, cheaper bills and the climate leadership that the public want.
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