Fracking - 25th November 2014

Here are the climate-related sections of speeches by MPs during the Commons debate Fracking.

Full text: https://hansard.parliament.uk/Commons/2014-11-25/debates/14112525000001/Fracking

Norman Baker (Lewes) (LD)

I am pleased to be able to introduce this debate on behalf of my constituents and, indeed, those nationally who are interested in the issue. The aims of energy policy are probably uncontroversial. They are to secure security of supply, and ideally indigenous supply, in order not to be held hostage by other countries in due course; to help to meet our climate change targets; and to use the energy supply to create jobs, to help the economy and, ideally, to keep prices down. The issue is whether the Government’s policy on fracking achieves those objectives. I am not sure that it does, and I therefore suggest to the Minister that we may be backing the wrong horse or at least putting too much money on the wrong horse, as I will now show.

I now want to look at the potential in relation to climate change and the argument that shale gas is a bridge to the future and cleaner than coal. Again, that is in doubt. First, it is worth pointing out that, in the south-east of England, we are talking about oil rather than gas in many respects. That factor has not, perhaps, permeated through to the public at large. The BGS completed an estimate in May 2014. Although it is estimated that large quantities of shale oil are present, no significant gas resource is recognised using the current geological model because the shale is not thought to have reached the geological maturity required to generate gas. Therefore, we are talking about oil extraction rather than gas extraction as far as areas round my constituency are concerned. That is an entirely different proposition in terms of climate change.

Norman Baker

My hon. Friend makes a very important point. We have to look at the global use of fossil fuels, which is the point that I am coming on to. It would be completely irresponsible for the world to use the fossil fuels that exist in total. Therefore, we have to move towards alternatives, rather than simply switching one fossil fuel for another. Some shale gas advocates have argued that it will reduce emissions, because shale gas will replace coal. That relates to the point that my hon. Friend makes. However, the Committee on Climate Change states that coal should be off the system entirely by the early 2020s. My hon. Friend will know that at our party conference this year, we committed to ensuring that that happened. The best industry estimates are that shale gas will not be online until the 2020s, by which time there should really be no coal to replace.

Norman Baker

I entirely accept that the geological conditions are different in different countries. There may be a stronger argument elsewhere for shale gas, for the very reasons that the hon. Gentleman has given, but I suggest to him that in the UK context, that argument does not stack up, for the reasons that we have given. Also, this UK Government and the previous Government have given a strong lead internationally on tackling climate change. We have a very good record on that, and what we do is very important in sending a signal to other countries. We should not underestimate that.

Norman Baker

Undoubtedly, we are largely dependent on gas. I would argue that natural gas is preferable to coal. However, I am not sure that that is the case with shale gas, for the reasons that I will come to, one of which is methane leakage. US studies have shown that up to 9% of methane can escape into the atmosphere, and over a 20-year timeline, methane can be 86 times more powerful, greenhouse gas-wise, than carbon. Therefore, there is a real danger that far from being something that aids us in reducing carbon emissions, shale gas, if not controlled properly, could be as bad as coal. The type of gas and how it is extracted are very important in ensuring that our carbon emissions or greenhouse gas emissions are as low as possible. There is growing evidence that methane emissions can be very high. I ask the Minister to address that issue and tell me what the Department of Energy and Climate Change is doing to ensure that the regulatory regime is robust enough and does not simply rely on what the industry says but uses independent analysis to establish the levels of methane leakage.

Norman Baker

There is then the question of what else we might do if we do not have fracking, or if we have less fracking than the Government would like. An alternative energy strategy is available that would provide security, aid efforts to reduce climate change and produce jobs: further investment in renewables. I ask the Minister to back that horse. I hope that the climate change argument speaks for itself, but with regard to the security of energy supplies, renewables are all ours. There is an indigenous supply of renewables, which is endless by nature. We have immense potential for wind, solar, hydro, wave and tidal power in this country.

“Renewable energy sources will be critical to reducing our vulnerability to energy supply shocks”.

Those are wise words, and I am delighted that since 2010 the coalition Government has secured the investment of £29 billion in renewable energy sources, which is more than double the amount secured by the last Labour Government. Electricity from renewables has more than doubled since 2010, and we are now seeing the price of solar cut by two thirds. The Government is doing a great number of good things for renewable energy, and I argue that the potential to do even more is not quite limitless, and not quite renewable, but there is certainly potential to do a great deal more than we have so far achieved.

Investing in green energy creates green jobs, and I am delighted that the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change has given the go-ahead for a wind farm off the Sussex coast that will create some 100 jobs at Newhaven in my constituency. Those who rubbish renewables, particularly our UK Independence party friends, are busy destroying British jobs through their approach to such matters. We must ensure that the mood music coming from Parliament and the Government supports renewable energy and does not bring into question the Government’s future commitment.

Norman Baker

I will conclude my speech to give plenty of time for other hon. Members to contribute. I advise the Minister to stop backing the wrong horse and back renewables. Shale has been “overhyped”—the word used by the UK Energy Research Centre. Shale could be damaging, rather than helpful, to our country. Energy security, climate change and jobs are helped by investing more money in renewables, instead of the concentration we have seen on fracking.

Mr Iain McKenzie (Inverclyde) (Lab)

Those in favour of fracking say that the UK is ripe for a fracking revolution. They say that fracking will be vital to providing energy security while helping to develop a domestic energy industry that will lead to more jobs and investment in local communities across the country. No doubt such beliefs have paved the way for the Government’s tax breaks for the shale gas industry, making Britain the world’s most pro-fracking country, but at what cost to our green energy commitments? It would be unrealistic to say that gas will not play a part in the UK’s future energy mix, but the fracking-at-any-cost approach ignores many problems, and it must be addressed.

Mr McKenzie

Fracking will do little to help Britain to reduce its carbon dioxide emissions. Research from BP earlier this year suggested that, even with the increasing use of shale gas as an energy source in the future, we can still expect greenhouse gas emissions to increase by about 29% during the next two decades. Given our already poor record on emissions, it would be a mistake to prioritise the use of an energy source that will do little to help us to meet those commitments.

Most importantly, shale gas will not last for ever. We should consider diversification and a mix of energy production, as well as investing in renewables, an energy source that will not simply disappear. Instead, it will provide jobs and investment in local communities for generations to come, helping us to build a truly environmentally friendly energy policy. The potential in the sector is great, but benefits from the fracking industry mean that it could be neglected. If that is the case, the UK would be left trailing behind others in creating sustainable energy for the future.

Talk of renewables often conjures up images of endless rows of wind turbines, which are themselves questionable in terms of energy efficiency, and which ruin previously picturesque parts of our countryside. Such imagery merely reflects the lack of imagination on the subject that is being shown by both the UK and the Scottish Government. Renewable energy can be so much more than that imagery suggests, and it is vital that our environmental policies reflect that.

For example, the west coast of Scotland has more coastline than the entirety of France, and it receives some of the world’s strongest tides. It is ripe with opportunities to help Britain to become a leader in green energy. Tidal energy could provide an estimated 20% of our energy needs, and it is immensely short-sighted not to take advantage of it.

Mr McKenzie

Absolutely, Mr Gray—my hon. Friend makes a very good point about the importance of pushing ahead with our renewable energy sources, including putting more research and development resources into the marine renewables sector.

The energy provided by tidal and hydro will not disappear overnight, whereas shale gas will come and go. There would be additional benefits from developing such energy sources. Proper management of water by hydro projects could mitigate some of the adverse effects of climate change—in my constituency of Inverclyde, problems with water management are partly responsible for the flooding we have experienced—but increased investment in green energy is unlikely if fracking remains the favoured, and indeed the only, cornerstone of our energy policy.

Many other Members wish to speak, so I will finish by saying that, rather than continuing to focus only on fracking, let us fully utilise the potential of renewables. They remain a small part of the energy mix here and worldwide, but renewable energy sources such as tidal, hydro and wind will help to make us a leader in reducing carbon emissions.

David Mowat (Warrington South) (Con)

It is a pleasure to speak in the debate and I congratulate the right hon. Member for Lewes (Norman Baker) on securing it. I agreed with the first part of his speech, when he said that energy policy has three components—low cost, security of supply and decarbonisation—but we perhaps parted company afterwards.

David Mowat

Any student of the subject who does not believe that nuclear power globally is part of the decarbonisation solution does not have a thoughtful response to offer. Last year and the year before, 87% of the world’s energy came from fossil fuels. Of that, by far the majority came from coal and oil. If we could replace that coal and oil with gas—that is a big aspiration and it will not be done overnight—it would be equivalent in decarbonisation to the world increasing by nine times existing global renewables.

David Mowat

I will wrap up fairly quickly, Mr Gray. I clearly accept what the hon. Gentleman says—we have seen that happen in respect of the United States. That coal came to Europe because Europe failed to put in place an emissions trading system—it was principally scuppered by the Germans. As a consequence, it was cheap coal to burn. We have seen an upsurge in coal in Europe and more widely in the world, which is a big problem for those who take an interest in climate change. To pretend that emissions trading is not part of the solution is wrong.

Caroline Lucas (Brighton, Pavilion) (Green)

In the short moments I have, I will focus on two things in particular: I will say a few words about regulation, but I will mostly talk about the climate change arguments. On regulation, we have a Government who will keep trying to persuade us that they will put in place the robust regulatory framework we need to make fracking safe, yet at other times they put on a different hat and tell us how much they are proud of their deregulatory zeal. I do not think I am the only person suggesting that those two impetuses are contradictory. My fear is that the deregulatory zeal will win out.

The argument that shale gas is lower carbon than coal only stacks up if minimum methane emissions can be guaranteed. Even if that were possible, the argument that shale gas can be a substitute for coal ignores the crucial issues of time scales, overall carbon budgets and the displacement effects that the hon. Member for Chippenham (Duncan Hames) has been talking about. Shale gas is still a high-carbon fossil fuel, even if it is a bit better than some coal. The crucial thing is that we have at our disposal numerous other ways to ensure that coal is off the system by the early 2020s at the latest. Other Members have given some examples of that. We do not need shale gas.

Those arguing that shale gas is compatible with the UK’s climate objectives ignore a pivotal issue, despite its being identified in the report from the Department of Energy and Climate Change’s then chief scientist. He said:

“If a country brings any additional fossil fuel reserve into production, then in the absence of strong climate policies, we believe it is likely that this production would increase cumulative emissions in the long run. This increase would work against global efforts on climate change.”

Essentially, the argument is about unburnable carbon. As other Members have said, reports and analysis from the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, the Carbon Tracker Initiative, the International Energy Agency and even Mark Carney, the Governor of the Bank of England, all show that we cannot afford to burn the vast majority of existing fossil fuel reserves if we are to avoid the worst impacts of climate change. In the context of cuts and austerity, using public money on tax breaks and relentless public relations initiatives to help fracking firms find yet more oil and gas is inexcusable.

An effective response to climate change requires a complete shift to carbon-neutral energy systems within a generation in all the major economies, including Britain. We know how to do that. We have the technology and engineering capacity to do it and we can afford to do it. What we need is the political will, because we cannot do it while making ourselves more, not less, dependent on any kind of fossil fuel. This is how the UK’s former top energy and climate diplomat, John Ashton, put it:

Just last week, the UK announced its welcome contribution to the green climate fund, which was set up to help developing countries cope with the devastating impacts of climate change that many already face. The Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change was right to emphasise the need to help poorer countries to develop using clean renewable technologies and to highlight the green climate fund as a crucial part of the jigsaw of getting a global climate agreement in Paris next year. It is incoherent, irresponsible and deeply unhelpful for the Government at the same time to be doing everything they can to build a new dirty fracking industry in the UK. The only safe and responsible thing to do with shale gas is to leave it in the ground.

Mark Menzies (Fylde) (Con)

There is an opportunity to create an independent panel of experts—not another regulatory body or function—to consider the work of the regulators, interrogate the regulations that are in place from an independent perspective and ensure that the Health and Safety Executive, the Environment Agency, the Department of Energy and Climate Change, county councils and mineral rights authorities are working and have no gaps in their work. The people who sit on this body, which has to be funded by the Government, should be independent from the Government, and the application process to join such a body must be fair, open and transparent. At the moment, the perception of many people out there is that, although the regulatory function may be technically robust from an industry perspective, there are gaps. Only by creating a new panel of experts, as I have outlined, with some speed will we have an opportunity to try to address that matter.

Matthew Hancock

I pay tribute to the clear mind that the hon. Member for Brighton, Pavilion (Caroline Lucas) has on this issue, although I happen to disagree with her position, because I do not think that the best place for shale gas is underground. She said that she was disappointed that her parliamentary question went to the DWP. That happened because it was a question for the Health and Safety Executive, and the DWP is responsible for the HSE. She also referred to a point made by the former chief scientist. He said that shale gas was a problem in the absence of a climate change policy. Well, we have a climate change policy.

Caroline Lucas

Does the Minister not recognise that the issue that really matters is how much fossil fuel is being burned and cannot be how much more renewable energy is being created if those renewables do not replace fossil fuels? My argument with him is that at the same time as creating some renewables—for which he gets some credit, although there are not nearly enough—he is anticipating a whole new fossil fuel industry. That is incompatible—the scientists say that it is—with the kind of targets we currently have on climate change.

Matthew Hancock

I firmly believe that the more well-founded, well-researched scientific analysis that is put in the public domain, the more we will be able to reassure people that shale gas represents an opportunity that it is incumbent upon us as a country to look at and explore and that that exploration can be done safely. It has to be done within a strong regulatory structure, but will none the less provide an opportunity for jobs, energy security and economic benefit and, in the short term, will tackle climate change by removing other dirtier fuels from the system, within the context of a balanced energy mix. I therefore look forward to working with all hon. Members to make sure that we get this matter right, so that we can take the advantages of the exploration, which are clear, but do so in a way that mitigates some of the risks that are undoubtedly there as well.

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